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 We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful

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ukkonen
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sat 26 Mar 2011, 22:59

I'm genuinely curious to know what sort of setlist they would come up with for Coachella, considering that ODLT wasn't the song that was used frequently upon the album's release. And it wouldn't make much sense to perform songs from the last two albums, since I am under the impression that most US fans would have to fall into the 'long-time' fan demographic. But that doesn't always ring true, either. I've spent an embarassingly large amount of time promoting the band to others in real life and online to individuals who have never heard one song of theirs. Most of the time I'm successful and it's always a different song I recommend to individuals depending on their own musical tastes. I completely sold an individual with a live track of Red from the 2003 Black Sessions and even though they're not on the level of obsession that I am, I still listen to their new releases simultaneously with them. The only individuals who match me with the amount of... affection? I have for the band are the ones on this forum and trust me, it's a good thing that I'm not the only individual who has reached Beatlesmania crazy (and beyond) for them. Despite being a huge fan of both the Beatles and Elbow, visiting Blueprint Studios would be a bigger deal for me than Abbey Road.

I think it's easy for fans to become territorial of the band, especially when it comes to newcomers who have no clue about their entire discography. It is a bit unfair to judge the ones who raise their arms when being asked if it's their first Elbow gig, though, because any of them could be long-time fans who have never had the pleasure of seeing them live. I've been a fan of Elbow for years and have completely lucked out on seeing them live at all.

The most disheartening about all of this is the fact that Mark is under the impression that the hardcore fans don't want them to be successful. Somewhere along the way we've been overly critical of a band who has never given any of us a reason to distrust them in their career-wise decisions. When they left V2, it caused a bit of a stir amongst the fans because their future was uncertain. Look at what came from that time period! They ended up with a label who can actually meet their demands and truly seem invested in their career and then released a brilliant album. That was the best decision they've ever made. Who knows what would have happened to them if they decided to stick with the horrendous treatment they received from V2. I'm dying for them to be more successful in America, because then it will result in a better US tour.

With that being said, I've seen the various live videos on youtube from this tour and they've done a great job with the set up. I genuinely wish that I could see them in a similar environment but it's financially impossible and I have no issue with living vicariously through you lot. Smile They're currently living the dream with these arena tour dates.

Blah blah blah, that was only a bit of word vomit. What I'd like to say is that they'll go back to playing the small concerts and all the old favorites will come back to the setlist. They're going through a transition period and I think they've handled it the best way they can. They can't cause confusion amongst the new fans (ie: That one fan thinking that "Fugitive Motel" is a new song) and isolate them with the older classics. It's better to perform something they're familiar with and win them over that way. Eventually all those new fans will become one of us and it's a better world when there are more Elbow fans, as I've quickly realized that the majority are some of the kindest around.

And Glendarian, I am the exact same way about music and concerts. I've never understood why anyone would find it irritating, considering it's the least intrusive way of listening to music at concerts. You would think more people would just be there to take it all in, but it seems we're in a very small minority. I can still recall a friend's experience at an Arcade Fire concert. They complained that some people in the front row were just standing there instead of dancing! I had no idea the front row was reserved for dancing. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 13:28

I was a bit shocked by the title when this thread was started but there has been very valid points made, like from glendarian, cozzer, ukkonen, and an interesting discussion around what success/friends actually is.

I don't entirely go with you're perceptions of V2 versus the label they are with now, ukkonen, but we are not in the industry so will only ever know from our fan/consumer/buyer point of view.
Yes, they have made it now to arenas with this label so had to be... but as far as purely albums discography goes, I still think, (as was discussed at the time) that the selections and packaging inserts of the deluxe Asleep in the back re-issue, missed a trick or two, and wonder if all their amazing b-sides will ever be recognised in album form.
The b-sides aura seem more isolated now from the latest albums and stage performances now, hope the new fans who want to, are able to appreciate the magic of other elbow music too one day.

I loved hearing the new songs live at the Cambridge gig and how TSSK has developed being presented live, and looking forward to it translated with lighting and stage management into the huge 02 in a couple of days time.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 18:34

In terms of general awareness elbow are have definitely made it. Anecdote time - up to this tour whenever my family/friends/colleagues said "who are you seeing this time" each time I went to an elbow gig, my answer would always draw blank faces and shrugs.

This time, EVERYONE has heard of them (even my hairdresser!) and at least 50% have said "oh I love elbow". And I even found friends to bring along!

As LWD said, hopefully all these new fans will come to love the elbow back catalogue as much as us - or if not at least like enough of it that one day the band will be able to reintroduce some older material into the sets without losing the momentum of the gig.

Anyone who was at the MEN on Friday surely cannot begrudge the band the success they so richly deserve. What a thrill it must be for them to look out over a packed arena, and feel the love! Seeing so many people enjoying themselves to their music, waving their hands in the air, dancing, crying, laughing - and its all because of them.

In the meantime, my personal obscurist tendency is still satisfied by other bands and I will continue to get blank faces when I mention my next gig. Next up is Turin Brakes....
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sun 27 Mar 2011, 19:32

hilary, enjoy your next Turin Brakes gig, they are great live aren't they? they were Mercury nominated same as Elbow in 2001, and they are lovely blokes too.
First time I saw I am Kloot was supporting Turin Brakes...been to these two's gigs almost as many times as elbow. They recently put out their Optimist LP in original demo form taken from an unmastered cassette "complete with original snap crackle n' pop" on their player www.turinbrakes.com/ as a happy birthday optimist treat...mmm lovely, and I love their 'Talk Talk cover.
Another band that deserves their success.

just found out Very Happy
A very special Turin Brakes performance for Meadowlands 2011. Celebrating 10 years since the release of their Mercury nominated Optimist LP, the band will play this album from start to finish along with many other classics from their repertoire.
"we are planning more Optimist live shows later in the year too Wink"

looking forward to this Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 12:42

mrswoman wrote:
"... it put me in mind of this quote from the Q interview:

"I read the forums and our hardcore fans don't want us to be successful", says Mark Potter. "They don't want us to be playing arenas. So this album could not be what people are fearing [i.e. 11 versions of One Day Like This]".
Nope. I have no problems with them being successful. They bloody well deserve it.

True. I don't want to see them (in a totally selfish way) playing arenas. I don't begrudge them playing in arenas at all if they can fill them but I've been there and done that. Cavernous venues with little dots running around a tiny stage while badly synched big screens show you the detail. Might as well stay at home and watch the DVD when it comes out. And let's not mention the overpriced and disgustingl food and drink. At least at smaller venues you can get a decent beer at the pub next door before the show. Smaller venues are also easier to get to and away from and I don't like huge crowds.

I wish them every success and BARB is another wonderul album. I'll just not be seeing them live anymore.

Glendarian said it best further up the page. That's how I feel.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 14:37

Interesting thread, this. I hadn't looked in on it before my trip, so seeing it now is especially thought-provoking to me, after having witnessed the "superstar" version of Elbow that exists in the UK. Prior to that, I'd never had a real inkling of what that was like, since they are obviously nowhere near that arena-sized hugeness here. And allyngibson and ukkonen have both made some great comments from the US perspective.

But I think there's a clear and important distinction to be made between being nostalgic for the early days of smaller live shows, and being actively angered or upset by the band's overall success. The arena tour is a by-product of how well they’re doing now, and though the gig-going might not be as pleasurable anymore for some who've got those earlier/smaller shows to compare it to, it seems clear that none of us are complaining about the way Elbow are finally being embraced by a wider audience now. I really don't think any of us who have been long-time Elbow fans would begrudge the lads their reward at this point.

I know it's completely different for someone like me, because I never had that history of seeing the band live in such intimate settings while they were first starting out. So, as far as concerts go, I can understand how those of you who were lucky enough to be there would mourn the loss of that a bit. It would've been really special to experience the band in that way, and it makes sense that you'd feel those early gigs were more satisfying than their recent Enormodome appearances. Whereas, for me, things have remained more or less unchanged here. They played mid-sized venues last time they toured here, and if/when they return on this tour, I expect they'll be in those same types of venues again.

Now, however, I have also had the good fortune to experience Elbow in the arena setting, and I have to say, I bloody loved it! Like I’ve said elsewhere and often, I always thought of Elbow as being bigger than the venues I’d seen them in. I always thought they should be friggin’ huge here, and I hoped they would be one day. That day still hasn’t happened in the US, and it might not ever happen at this point, to be perfectly and realistically honest. But the way they are in the UK and other places right now – an actual, certified arena band – works for me, simply because they are so much better than all those other acts that regularly fill those big places, and I’d much rather see them filled with Elbow fans (even relatively new ones) than with Lady Gaga fans or Katy Perry fans. Our boys are successful because they actually deserve to be successful. Now isn’t that refreshing, in this day and age? If Rebecca Ruddy Black can get millions of YouTube hits and numerous career opportunities at the age of 14, all for being monumentally awful, why wouldn’t we all celebrate the good fortune and commercial acclaim that Elbow have now attained after many years of being genuinely awesome at and committed to what they do?

This is why I personally have no issue with the whole thing going the way it’s gone. We would like to think they’re “our” band, and in some ways they are and always will be. But if there are thousands of people paying good money to see them, even if the only song they know is “One Day Like This”, who are we to say they can’t or shouldn’t? Music, especially Elbow’s music, is about being inclusive. The way so many hipsters tend to emphasize the exclusivity of certain bands really pisses me off, and I’d hate to think that any of us share that mindset. Because those types of people really kill the joy of music for me. Like, you think you’re better than I am because you go to shows that only have 47 people in the crowd? Or because the band you like has released their debut album as a super-limited, LP-only pressing of 125 units, all made by hand in the drummer’s basement, using vinyl that’s been mixed together with the blood of virgin canaries? Oh, get over yourself! Seriously, anyone with such pretensions can bite me twice. I’d rather be in a big arena full of people who are enjoying the same band I’m enjoying, even if they just discovered the group that same afternoon, than standing to the side, smugly listening to blog-approved buzz bands on my iPod all by myself. Where’s the fun in that?

When it all comes right down to it, we still love Elbow, and they still love us. They have invited a whole crowd of new people to their party, but that’s OK. They know why we old-timers came to the party back at the beginning, when we were the only ones that showed up, and they are still doing exactly the same things that drew us in back then. The new album gives us ample proof of that – listening to those songs, there's no doubt that their hearts are still right where they’ve always been. If we feel weird about seeing them in the arenas, if we don’t enjoy those types of shows or venues in general, or if we have the urge to roll our eyes when the Elbow-come-latelies say or do something that we hardcore fans find amusing, that’s all OK. But let’s never give our boys a reason to believe we resent what they’ve achieved, because I know none of us feel that way, and I hope they know that too.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 15:14

Top, top post Chrissie - along with many others on this thread.

A reason why I'm gonna go to Belfast in August is that there will be only 5,000 tickets - BUT if there were 50,000, I'd still be there, and STILL aching for 0900 on Friday when they go on sale !

As mentioned before - there IS something refreshing about how it's taken them a long time ,to get success regarding sales of gig tickets and records.

barb ! is a record that's stayed true to themselves - absolutely crucial to me, in still loving them to bits.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 16:03

Chrissie

Yep, I'm with MBV on this. Also, I don't think the boys should be apologists for being good at their craft - you don't hear Springsteen fans bemoaning the fact that he's managed to sell out Giants Stadium or is No 1 in the US album charts. I mean, they're not bloody Chumbawamba or some other agitprop outfit where the music comes a distant second.

I wonder if The Beatles had this problem back in 1964 ... "Now, they're playing The Palladium I'm not goin' to see them ... sod that!"

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 17:47

ChrissieInFL wrote:
, and they are still doing exactly the same things that drew us in back then. The new album gives us ample proof of that –
....not sure about that bit, Chrissie... they have really grown and blossomed their live sound and developed in confidence...how good do some of the rare songs like 'picky bugger' I've got your number' Any day now' 'Presuming Ed' Can't stop' , Snooks and Mcgreggor sound live now on the few times we've been treated.
I miss (as I said before) that they can't be experimental and take a chance on playing a few more like these, and have to rely on their anthem pleasers 'One day like this' With love, Grounds..and the songs that everyone should 'know', but that don't have the lasting magnificence of some of the others.
Look how many people 'liked' the old Jools Holland 'fugitive motel' clip on facebook.
I missed that Guy didn't actually play guitar this tour as he had to concentrate on bring frontman.
Ok the arena set had to be programmed for the lighting and effects, but sheffield got 'the fix' in?

As for the new album, I absolutely love 'the birds',,,that one most definitely drew me as back then and also 'dear friends' but some of the others (wonderful lyrics apart) have been a little formulaic in creation... like 'this track will be 'one day like this' feel good mark 2 and this one will be the clappy one.
So the new album starts giving us that proof, but then coasts just a bit, just apprehensive when their brilliance is diluted, but then many are none the wiser.
'Looking back is for the birds' but those songs can still be celebrated, and more songs of the calibre of 'the birds' are yet to be written.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 17:49

Cozzer wrote:
I wonder if The Beatles had this problem back in 1964 ... "Now, they're playing The Palladium I'm not goin' to see them ... sod that!"

Laughing

well they did, but wasn't it more... sod that we are not playing, Anywhere, when the fans can't hear us anymore for screaming and mobbing us, and we could play and sing the phonebook and they would still adore.


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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 17:53

lucky with disease wrote:
Cozzer wrote:
I wonder if The Beatles had this problem back in 1964 ... "Now, they're playing The Palladium I'm not goin' to see them ... sod that!"

Laughing

well they did, but wasn't it more... sod that we are not playing, Anywhere, when the fans can't hear us anymore for screaming and mobbing us.

Good point. I'd forgotten about all that madness. Keith Richards touches on it in his autobiography. They could literally have played 'Mary Had A Little Lamb" and it would not have made the slightest difference. Strange days ...
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 22:10

lucky with disease wrote:
I miss (as I said before) that they can't be experimental and take a chance on playing a few more like these, and have to rely on their anthem pleasers 'One day like this' With love, Grounds..and the songs that everyone should 'know', but that don't have the lasting magnificence of some of the others.

'Looking back is for the birds' but those songs can still be celebrated, and more songs of the calibre of 'the birds' are yet to be written.

I agree that the earlier songs are sorely missed in the live shows. I sure do wish they would've thrown a few of 'em in there for those of us that love them so much! But the reality is that this - and every - tour is promotional in nature, and in that respect, I suppose it makes perfect sense for them to weight the set list so heavily in favor of the newer material. I expect they will bring some old favorites back at some point, but this was their first proper arena tour, and they did exactly what worked for that purpose, even if it didn't make for the ideal live Elbow experience for the seasoned fan.

As far as the album goes, I think the experimental/progressive sound they had in the earlier days was only one factor in the appeal they had (at least for me). What I think won over many people, myself included, was the honesty and emotional depth of the songs. They reflected what was going on in and around the lives of the band at that point. This is something about them that hasn't changed or diminished at all; the songs on BARB do exactly the same thing, which is why I have come to embrace most of the new tunes so easily. But because the Elboys are all experiencing life in a different way than they were back then, the sounds and the styles are different as well.

In all the interviews I've seen/heard in recent months, the band seem a bit contemplative and wistful about certain people and experiences in their past, happy and settled in their current situations, and very positive about what lies ahead in the future. This is exactly what the songs on BARB sound like to me. I agree that, sonically, most of the album isn't as intense as The Birds or some of the earlier material, but I don't necessarily think that makes them lesser songs, just different. These are not the same dudes that were struggling with relationships and record labels 10 years ago, so if the songs seem a bit less complex, it's because life for them is probably a bit less complex in certain ways. The songs are grounded in reality, honest and heartfelt though, just as they were from the very beginning. So from my perspective, it doesn't seem like a sell-out, or "diluted", or anything other than what Elbow songs have always been to me. Obviously this is my own subjective opinion, and everyone's got differing views which are all as valid as mine, but that's why I feel the way I do about their evolution up to this point, FWIW.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 06 Apr 2011, 22:54

I do really agree with your last post Chrissie about the musical development and newer material and complexity, and look forward to more of BARB live, its just with 2 years of touring most of TSSK last time, would be more interesting to have just a liitle something different thrown in, but yet still in keeping with where they are now, as some of the other songs had not disimilar themes and its like those wonderful b sides and the first 2 albums are being ignored for not being popular enough!

Anyway I've just been listening to the Birds loud in the car on the way back from the pub, with the different sounds coming out of each speaker either side of me in the passenger seat...that song is really haunting me, in a good way! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Mon 11 Apr 2011, 10:50

They are like a secret you want to keep all to yourselves! I still get ELbow? Who are they? I suppose genius gets rewarded! They deserve all the success!
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Fri 15 Apr 2011, 21:05

Good to read the responses on here, especially when people got the point & then put their take on a thorny question.

Maybe there's a case of 'be careful what you wish for' for some? Twisted Evil

Got sent a link today to a blog post which revisits a few of the themes raised:
Worth a read.


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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Fri 15 Apr 2011, 22:57

mrswoman wrote:
Good to read the responses on here, especially when people got the point & then put their take on a thorny question.

Maybe there's a case of 'be careful what you wish for' for some? Twisted Evil

Got sent a link today to a blog post which revisits a few of the themes raised:
Worth a read.


Worth a read, for all the wrong reasons I'd say.

That is one of the most patronising things I think I've ever read if I'm being perfectly honest. There's something about the way he talks that just pisses me off. Reading it again, I'm beginning to think this is a parody of some sort.

"They do still belong to me"

Jesus.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sat 16 Apr 2011, 06:46

Oi Wretch, why do you think everything's a parody?
That blog just reminded me of some different people's views on here that's all. Not that fellas' fault if he's not a professional writer. Most blogs are of variable quality.

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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Sat 16 Apr 2011, 06:50

I thought the blog post was an interesting take; thanks for the link MrsW.
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Mon 18 Apr 2011, 13:18

Wretch wrote:
mrswoman wrote:
Good to read the responses on here, especially when people got the point & then put their take on a thorny question.

Maybe there's a case of 'be careful what you wish for' for some? Twisted Evil

Got sent a link today to a blog post which revisits a few of the themes raised:
Worth a read.


Worth a read, for all the wrong reasons I'd say.

That is one of the most patronising things I think I've ever read if I'm being perfectly honest. There's something about the way he talks that just pisses me off. Reading it again, I'm beginning to think this is a parody of some sort.

"They do still belong to me"

Jesus.

I can confirm that I'm not parodying anything. Just saying how it is, for me.

Flattered that you read it twice. Cheers.

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Mon 18 Apr 2011, 18:26

Mike (&MrsW), that was a wonderful read - let's face it, a lot of us have felt that way....I loved the Blackpool gig you write about, but yes - I remember the constant din at the bar area especially during the quieter numbers and it pissed me off, but just mentally tried to block them out.

The MEN gig was probably the best Arena gig I've ever been to......roll on Belfast !
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:01

So, I'm guessing from looking around other threads and such that this is the basic setlist for their tour:

1. The Birds
2. The Bones of You
3. Lippy Kids
4. Mirrorball
5. With Love
6. Neat Little Rows
7. The Night Will Always Win
8. Great Expectations
9. Grounds for Divorce
10. The Loneliness of a Tower Crane Driver
11. Puncture Repair
12. Some Riot
13. Weather to Fly
14. Open Arms

encore

15. Starlings
16. Station Approach
17. One Day Like This

The last time I saw them live was back in 2006, during TLOTFW and before that during AITB back in 2002. And with being a US fan, this time around their only US date was Coachella, which is saddening for me as that was too far to make the trip.

I think that the live aspect of any group is challenged when they hit "the bigtime". This setlist kind of shows that, and while I understand that the new songs take precedence, this is what I would like to see:

1. The Birds
2. The Bones of You
3. Lippy Kids
4. With Love
5. Mirrorball Fallen Angel
6. Neat Little Rows
7. The Night Will Always Win
8. Great Expectations
9. Grounds for Divorce
10. The Loneliness of a Tower Crane Driver
11. Puncture Repair Not A Job
12. Some Riot
13. Weather To Fly Powder Blue
14. Open Arms
15. One Day Like This*

*Not so much because I want to hear it, but because they kinda have to play that one now.

encore

16. Starlings
17. Station Approach Switching Off
18. Picky Bugger
19. Leaders Of The Free World
20. Scattered Black & Whites
21. Friend Of Ours

Yeah, it's a lot of songs, and probably a tad bit unrealistic.


Last edited by picky bugger 71 on Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:43; edited 1 time in total
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Glendarian
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:06

picky bugger 71 wrote:

*Not so much because I want to hear it, but because they kinda have to play that one now.

Not necessarily. I'd have thought they had to play Newborn but sadly they didn't. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 20 Apr 2011, 14:14

Glendarian wrote:
picky bugger 71 wrote:

*Not so much because I want to hear it, but because they kinda have to play that one now.

Not necessarily. I'd have thought they had to play Newborn but sadly they didn't. Sad

Too true
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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Wed 20 Apr 2011, 15:43

Before this thread develops into what fans would like to see in a live set now V what the band are comfortable playing now.
That was the set picked for the UK arenas, as many are well known recent crowd pleaser anthems/lending themselves to stage positioning and special effects/lighting/clapping.
It was great seeing a couple new extra from BARB in the KCRW radio set.

With 'Open Arms' now the single release pre festival dates, it could easily be bigged up even more live and 'One day...gradually phased out? Open Arms ticks all the right boxes....Its One day thats in danger of being FAR too much of a 'good' thing.
Apart from pretty regular, Switching off, the others you mention from 'Cast of Thousands' I don't think have ever been out since the Cast tour, so unlikely.
There must be a good reason why 'Picky Bugger' was only ever played live just once, only in Amsterdam.

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PostSubject: Re: We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful   Thu 21 Apr 2011, 06:03

I know what you mean about the setlist discussion (there are other threads, and I'd be hopeless anyway as "my" setlist would be a list of my favourite songs, whch shows what I know about it...) but more generally I think the types of songs chosen (or not chosen) and the reasons for that are relevant to the thread.
Without wanting to repeat myself or what others have said, I'd just have liked to have seen a bit more of a mix, of the old experimentation or surprise inclusions, but I suppose the reasons why that isn't possible is one of the reasons why, on a personal level, I don't like arena gigs...
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